Canon R8 Help understanding auto focus

This seems like a tricky case - I wouldn't normally expect the autofocus to reject objects closer in the frame for something further back that's partly obscured by the closer objects. Especially in a case like this where it's not a type of subject it can recognize/prioritize, like a person. I'd resort to MF, or you could try using the touchscreen to set the autofocus point on the object you want to focus on. I still do think it's asking a lot for it to ignore an obscuring foreground object in favour of something in the distance, though.

Describe what you mean by automatic mode? There so many options to choose from. I'm pretty much in Whole area AF and Eye detect 90% of the time. I turn eye detect off if my subject changes like a plane. Even then when I have left it on by mistake it still works.

As Paul stated in that scene you have given it nothing to work with using an automatic mode. If I was shooting that scene I'd be using single point AF with Autofocus on. I opened the R8 manual at the Canon site and you do have C1 and C2 modes. Here is what I do with my R6II and R7. I've set up M mode or you can use Av, Tv or whatever you normally use and set AF Area to Single Point. Turn off Whole Area, set Subject to Detect to None and disable Eye Detection.

For me AF Operation is always on Servo. This is a screen grab from the R8 manual.



I then have C1, C2 and C3 set up for Whole AF area, Subject to detect and Eye Detection for Animals, People, etc. Each mode has different set ups for what I'm shooting.

You should be testing those modes with the subjects the system was trained to detect and track. When setting up I use a bird book. The front cover has a nice Owl eye and works well. For people I use the TV (not Tv mode). There are people on it and it also works. News is a good candidate as the anchors are still so it gives you a chance to mess around.

A few things to remember. If you are shooting animals make sure Subject to Detect is set correctly. This includes the other categories. I was once shooting animals and then started to shoot people but forgot to change the setting. I thought I broke my camera because it would not AF properly. It is that sensitive.

miuzi said:

This seems like a tricky case - I wouldn't normally expect the autofocus to reject objects closer in the frame for something further back that's partly obscured by the closer objects. Especially in a case like this where it's not a type of subject it can recognize/prioritize, like a person. I'd resort to MF, or you could try using the touchscreen to set the autofocus point on the object you want to focus on. I still do think it's asking a lot for it to ignore an obscuring foreground object in favour of something in the distance, though.

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Sorry, I think you misunderstand me with your interpretation, the left shot is taken with the switch on the lens turned to MF and me manually focusing the lens on the tree in the background. The right image is with the switch on the lens turned to AF and it focuses on the branches in the foreground even though I am trying to get the tree in the background again. Please remember I am very new to this camera and have limited knowledge of a lot of the settings. I am just trying to get used to the camera, I am trying to find someone local to help me or taking a class but no luck yet.

Only RF said:

Describe what you mean by automatic mode? There so many options to choose from. I'm pretty much in Whole area AF and Eye detect 90% of the time. I turn eye detect off if my subject changes like a plane. Even then when I have left it on by mistake it still works.

As Paul stated in that scene you have given it nothing to work with using an automatic mode. If I was shooting that scene I'd be using single point AF with Autofocus on. I opened the R8 manual at the Canon site and you do have C1 and C2 modes. Here is what I do with my R6II and R7. I've set up M mode or you can use Av, Tv or whatever you normally use and set AF Area to Single Point. Turn off Whole Area, set Subject to Detect to None and disable Eye Detection.

For me AF Operation is always on Servo. This is a screen grab from the R8 manual.

View attachment 33343

I then have C1, C2 and C3 set up for Whole AF area, Subject to detect and Eye Detection for Animals, People, etc. Each mode has different set ups for what I'm shooting.

You should be testing those modes with the subjects the system was trained to detect and track. When setting up I use a bird book. The front cover has a nice Owl eye and works well. For people I use the TV (not Tv mode). There are people on it and it also works. News is a good candidate as the anchors are still so it gives you a chance to mess around.

A few things to remember. If you are shooting animals make sure Subject to Detect is set correctly. This includes the other categories. I was once shooting animals and then started to shoot people but forgot to change the setting. I thought I broke my camera because it would not AF properly. It is that sensitive.

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Thanks for responding, a lot of these settings are new to me, with my old setup (Olympus e510) I was able to specify only a left of frame, center of frame or right of frame focus area or totally automatic. I hope someday I can figure out the settings that you are speaking of. Auto mode meaning the green A on the top dial. I will continue to play with the settings and figure out what is suitable for my uses, it's just going to take a while.

On page 460 of the online manual if you select zones 1 to 3 you can select different areas of coverage and adjust the size of them. Refer to post #3 - Purple AF menus - AF Area.

You might find this useful.

Came across this while looking for this which is not surprising. Social media tracks everything you do right down to how long you take between keystrokes.

Radical 1 said:

Sorry, I think you misunderstand me with your interpretation, the left shot is taken with the switch on the lens turned to MF and me manually focusing the lens on the tree in the background. The right image is with the switch on the lens turned to AF and it focuses on the branches in the foreground even though I am trying to get the tree in the background again. Please remember I am very new to this camera and have limited knowledge of a lot of the settings. I am just trying to get used to the camera, I am trying to find someone local to help me or taking a class but no luck yet.

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Hey again! No, I understand what you're describing - your effort to re-describe it there confirmed as much.

Given that you're not focusing on a subject here that's covered by any of the R8's subject detection cases (ie. not a person, vehicle, animal) what you're essentially asking your camera to do is to ignore an object that is obstructing your intended subject, but they're both trees - same colour, brightness, and so on. I could see this perhaps being possible if you were trying to focus on a person beyond some branches with your subject recognition priority set to People. I could also see it working as you hope in a case where the background element is brighter or in some other way more obvious to your AF system. I just don't think autofocus is built to function this way, to reject the foreground element for the background. The foreground branches are too prominent in the frame, - they cross directly through the centre of it. If considered from the opposite perspective, if you were trying to take a photo of something closer to you (which I think one can safely assume is the default behaviour of autofocus) and it kept bypassing that thing to prioritize distant background objects, that would be super frustrating.

If it were a case where there were branches or other objects in frame but relegated mostly to the edges, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the camera would prioritize a more distant object that is in the centre. But in this case, the branches and small tree in the foreground are very prominent in the frame, crossing through it completely. To thread the needle and try to get your autofocus to reject all of those twigs and stuff and focus on background elements seems like more trouble to me than it's worth. Either pop it into manual focus, or just adjust your framing so that actual subject you want in focus is less obscured. Your camera can't read your mind, and I think you're fighting against how it would generally be expected to work here and frustrating yourself in the process. I do hope you're enjoying getting to know your R8 though - I absolutely love mine.

When using Canon cameras (and probably any other brand) there is not one AF Setup that works for all occasions. You need to play around with the different AF areas/zones and types until you find the one working for you on that particular scenario. For that specific case I would have selected single point to aim that point to the desire target.

ctitanic said:

When using Canon cameras (and probably any other brand) there is not on AF Setup that works for all occasions. You need to play around with the different AF zones and types until you find the one working for you. For that specific case I would have selected single point to aim that point to the desire target.

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And it does not have to be manual focus. AF will work.

Only RF said:

And it does not have to be manual focus. AF will work.

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Correct. I have one of the back buttons mapped to switch the AF areas/zones really quick, I love the lenses that allows you to overwrite the AF, that also helps.

Only RF said:

On page 460 of the online manual if you select zones 1 to 3 you can select different areas of coverage and adjust the size of them. Refer to post #3 - Purple AF menus - AF Area.

You might find this useful.

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Thanks @Only RF I just downloaded the pdf manual, i have been using the online version but now I have almost paper, I will look into these settings

miuzi said:

Hey again! No, I understand what you're describing - your effort to re-describe it there confirmed as much.

Given that you're not focusing on a subject here that's covered by any of the R8's subject detection cases (ie. not a person, vehicle, animal) what you're essentially asking your camera to do is to ignore an object that is obstructing your intended subject, but they're both trees - same colour, brightness, and so on. I could see this perhaps being possible if you were trying to focus on a person beyond some branches with your subject recognition priority set to People. I could also see it working as you hope in a case where the background element is brighter or in some other way more obvious to your AF system. I just don't think autofocus is built to function this way, to reject the foreground element for the background. The foreground branches are too prominent in the frame, - they cross directly through the centre of it. If considered from the opposite perspective, if you were trying to take a photo of something closer to you (which I think one can safely assume is the default behaviour of autofocus) and it kept bypassing that thing to prioritize distant background objects, that would be super frustrating.

If it were a case where there were branches or other objects in frame but relegated mostly to the edges, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the camera would prioritize a more distant object that is in the centre. But in this case, the branches and small tree in the foreground are very prominent in the frame, crossing through it completely. To thread the needle and try to get your autofocus to reject all of those twigs and stuff and focus on background elements seems like more trouble to me than it's worth. Either pop it into manual focus, or just adjust your framing so that actual subject you want in focus is less obscured. Your camera can't read your mind, and I think you're fighting against how it would generally be expected to work here and frustrating yourself in the process. I do hope you're enjoying getting to know your R8 though - I absolutely love mine.

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Thanks @miuzi for taking the time to reply with such detail, I am starting to understand the scenario you have described and it makes sense. I will continue to mess with the settings but at least I have a direction to start. I have to start learning to change the settings for the subject I am shooting, there is just so many settings for so many situations thank God it's not film.

Radical 1 said:

Thanks @miuzi for taking the time to reply with such detail, I am starting to understand the scenario you have described and it makes sense. I will continue to mess with the settings but at least I have a direction to start. I have to start learning to change the settings for the subject I am shooting, there is just so many settings for so many situations thank God it's not film.

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I came from an older DSLR (a Nikon D7000 in my case) to an R8 myself. The degree to which autofocus capabilities have advanced over the decade-plus between your prior camera or mine and current mirrorless bodies is astronomical. I've been using my R8 for a year and a half now, and it's still just an absolute pleasure every time I pick it up. My wife recently borrowed a D7000, by pure coincidence, from a colleague, and I was excited to see it. I thought it would be like reuniting with an old friend, but instead I was surprised at how ancient and rudimentary it felt. We're spoiled these days, cameras are just unbelievably capable. There are a ton of settings, but you'll find what works for you and get comfortable with it, no worries!

Aside from the original question which the crew suggested to use single point AF for that situation this new tech, as stated, ML is a whole new animal. While amazing IMO it is still pretty new and sometimes the algorithms need some help. It's just a computer trying to figure out what you want and when it gets it wrong how do correct that? This will get much better as the camera companies continue to train AI but for now.

You have seen the term override. It's a term/method developed by users and has evolved over the years. Basically if Eye Detect AF does not find the eye of your subject or picks the wrong subject what do you do to correct that?

Basically you map a button like AF-ON or the * to go into a non eye detect mode like single point, spot or zone. You get that on your subject, release the override button you mapped and eye snaps in. As long as your subject is in reasonable focus the system will find the eye.

I do this a little differently than most. When I owned the Canon 7D I never mapped AF to a back button like the AF-ON. I had no issues keeping the shutter half pressed while tracking something like a bird while taking burst sequences. When I got my 7D2 I decided to map AF to the AF-ON button and I have to say it was a real adjustment.

When this new Eye AF technology came out I decided to go back to having AF and Metering on the shutter button. I paid a lot money for this new tech so I figured I will let it do its job first and I'll intervene if I need to. Most of the time it is pretty good. I press the shutter half way and it will find the eye. If not it finds the head. If not the head then the torso. When the eye gets good enough for the system then it goes back to it.

These new cameras have a feature called Preview AF which is located on tab 3 of the purple AF menus. It will find an eye by just waking the camera up without pressing any buttons. If I have the shutter half pressed while tracking and I happen to lift my finger off the shutter button have way it kicks in and continues to AF. Quite a few people don't like that feature but I love it.

That freed up the AF-ON button for other purposes. It's my override for Eye Detect failure. I find it easier and faster to toggle it on and off when needed instead of lifting my thumb off the AF-ON and then pressing the * button. Some use that method.

Many like to use spot focus for override which to this day I have still not figured out why. I don't need a specific area in focus when I override, I just need the body in focus. I used to use Single point but these days I use Zone AF. The bigger the AF point or the more of them the more contrast the system has to work with. I have the option to choose Single or Spot if I need to but Zone works 90% of the time for me, especially for BIF.

NOTE: When I override I do not move the AF point/s around. Too slow for me. I physically move the camera so the point/s land on my subject, release the override to go back into Eye Detect AF and recompose. In fact I have not enabled the joystick or LCD on my cameras to use that.

This also freed up the * button. I use it to toggle between Whole Area AF, Zone AF, Single and Spot AF - all using Eye Detect. So when I choose Single point AF and press the shutter button that AF mode with Eye detect comes up.

There are many ways to do this. You can use spot, single point, zone AF for examples in non eye detect with the shutter button, pre-focus it on your subject first and then press the AF-ON that goes into Eye Detect AF. That is a very popular method.

There is a bit to digest here. You don't need to learn this overnight but it will really enhance your shooting enjoyment. You take control over your camera instead it the other way around. Find an override method that works for you.

I'll post a few videos later but here is one of my favourite examples. It's a Canon vs Sony shootout but watch the Canon clips. See how he uses expansion AF when the camera can't find the eye. This is what got me started on all of this. At minute 3:12 he is using Expansion AF wth Preview AF which is that white broken AF square on her eye. Then she moves down and AF is completely lost. Another great example at 3:58.

Only RF said:

I'll post a few videos later but here is one of my favourite examples. It's a Canon vs Sony shootout but watch the Canon clips. See how he uses expansion AF when the camera can't find the eye. This is what got me started on all of this. At minute 3:12 he is using Expansion AF wth Preview AF which is that white broken AF square on her eye. Then she moves down and AF is completely lost. Another great example at 3:58.

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That's a nice video showing the differences between Sony AF and Canon AF. I find the Canon AF more consistent. I was a Sony shooter for more than 5 years and at one point their were the leader of mirrorless technology, right now I think that Nikon, Sony and Canon are at the same level.

Yes it really expanded my overall approach to ML bodies. Expect Eye AF to fail so I don’t waste time worrying about why. I just work around it keep shooting.

I like the Fro. I was not too fond about 10 years ago but over time have found him very helpful.

Great thread great responses

Jan Wegener is very popular with BBF set up for override and he has many good videos. he has some out specific for the R8.

At minute 7:16 he shows how to use Spot Focus for override. I have never agree with him 100% but I'm not celebrity like Jan. I don't understand why you would not use Single Point AF here. I guess my beef is he never suggests an alternate AF mode. Both Rudy Winston and Nina Bailey (who was a technical writer and trainer for Canon) have said just because Spot is more precise it does not mean it is more accurate. If you tape a monetary to a wall Spot AF will not produce a sharper image than Single Point or Zone AF for that matter. I'm believer in taking advantage of as much contrast as possible for that function. Of course if Single Point is larger than your subject and focusing on the background then Spot is the way to go. I use Spot sparingly, only when needed and what it was designed for. Just my opinion but I'm a minnow in an ocean.


Similar to what I do. I came across video after I worked my to how I shoot. He uses the R7 here but it's all the same.

Yeap, I use the double back button focus , in one button I have tracking and eye detection enabled and in the other button I have spot AF without tracking or eye detection, that second button helps me many times to indicate the camera where is the subject that I want the focus on, then I may switch to the fist button to leave eye detection and tracking to do the job. Sometimes the eye and subject detection does not work so I go back to spot AF. That has improved my qty of pictures in focus immensely. For anyone taking pictures of birds, that setup is mandatory. Otherwise AF will be constantly failing on you due to the amount of obstacles such as branches and leave between you and the bird. Also, low contrast situations affect a lot how AF works. It could be busy backgrounds or foregrounds that are about the same color as your subject.

So spot AF is not my main focus method but an important complement to Eye Detection and Tracking.

Photofarmer said:

Great thread great responses

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Totally agree. These exchange of experiences and methods are invaluable source of knowledge for both rookies and experts. Our cameras are complex tools and you can't pretend that you know everything about them. When you think that you know all there is somebody coming with a new trick to improve what you already know. Photography is not static it changes with every new feature or camera release. You are always learning.

Double back button and Spot is the most popular method. My previous Canon R5 and current R6II have the ability to map the AF point selection button for AF so I assigned Spot there. The R7 does not. I like to be as consistent as possible mapping bodies so I had to come up with something different. As I stated I decided to map the * button to cycle through Whole Area, Single, Spot and Zone all with Eye Detect AF. It's on Whole Area most of the time.

If I need Spot AF for small birds in thick foliage or shooting through a fence I can get to it quickly with the * button. For my override (AF-ON) I need speed so I'm pretty much in Zone AF all of the time. I can select a different AF mode (non eye detect) if needed.

That is the beauty of these bodies. There are so many ways to fine tune for your shooting style.

Only RF said:

That is the beauty of these bodies. There are so many ways to fine tune for your shooting style.

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Yeap, there is not wrong way, there are styles or different methods depending on what works better for you.

I have the [[-]] button which in the R6 M1 is the first button from right to left mapped to switch to cycle between the different AF areas/modes. That one dictates what will be used in the * button. AF-ON is set to Eye Detection and Tracking and overwrite the * button. The shutter button on does Exposure.

And I recall that I could not do that in the R7, that's the type of inconsistencies that I hate in Canon.

ctitanic said:

Yeap, there is not wrong way, there are styles or different methods depending on what works better for you.

I have the [[-]] button which in the R6 M1 is the first button from right to left mapped to switch to cycle between the different AF areas/modes. That one dictates what will be used in the * button. AF-ON is set to Eye Detection and Tracking and overwrite the * button. The shutter button on does Exposure.

And I recall that I could not do that in the R7, that's the type of inconsistencies that I hate in Canon.

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Very true. That was why I liked my 7D2 and 5D4 as a combo so much. Same button/wheel layout for both.

Another thing that we have not mentioned yet is the C buttons.

For example, I have C1 set to use H and Aperture Priority with Animal Detection, C2, Aperture, Humans for with H or H+ depending on what type of Action I'm shutting, and C3 with Animal, Shutter Priority at 3000, Wide Area and H+.

Normally I'm shutting on C1 and if I noticed some birds in flight or any fast action with my fat finger I switch really quick to C3 (two clicks). When birds are perched I do not feel the need of having a H+ and I notice that H is enough and allows me to maintain better control on the number of pictures and I think that I achieve more accuracy (in the R7 H+ was making the AF fail a lot).

My biggest curse has always been ISO. I'm shooting BIF and bird lands on a branch and I always shot with way too high an ISO in that situation. I use C1-3 for that. All settings are the same except ISO. High for fast moving subjects, Mid for slow moving subjects and Low for static subjects. One thing I do really miss about my R5 (that the R5II likely has) is I could map C1-3 to a button.

I have mapped Eye Detect On/Off to the Set button on both bodies.

One gripe I have with Canon. I can map Subject to Detect to a button with my R6II. The R7 does not offer that. It is just basic programming. Fortunately I'm pretty much always shooting animals with the R7 so it's not too bad. I would still like to have the option. I go into the Green registered menus to change it.

Well, one thing that I learned from the R7 was how to deal with noise resulting from high ISO up to the point that I do not care that much any more about ISO.
Basically I start my post editing process by applying DXO Pureraw 3 to all my pictures from that day shooting. After that I take the DNGs to LrC and do some basic editing that includes sharpening with Topaz Sharpening which includes also some denoising. Most of time, these two processes give me an acceptable level of noise in my pictures. In very few occasions once in LrC I may have to use Topaz Denoise.

The R6 is very good at low light, so that helps a lot too.

I do that as well but I do prefer a lower ISO if the situation presents itself. That being said I’ver never been afraid of high ISO. In 2009 I shot a night time football game at 12800 with my 7D. I had no choice with an f4 lens. Cleaned up pretty good using PS.

Only RF said:

I do that as well but I do prefer a lower ISO if the situation presents itself. That being said I’ver never been afraid of high ISO. In 2009 I shot a night time football game at 12800 with my 7D. I had no choice with an f4 lens. Cleaned up pretty good using PS.

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No questions about it. The lower the ISO you can get the better the results. ISO still in the back of my mind at any shoot but it's not longer something that I'm that worry about it. Again I think that this depends also a lot on what camera you are using. The R7 was to me stressful on that sense up to the point that I sold it after two year of using it. Normally I keep my cameras for a longer time than that.

ctitanic said:

No questions about it. The lower the ISO you can get the better the results. ISO still in the back of my mind at any shoot but it's not longer something that I'm that worry about it. Again I think that this depends also a lot on what camera you are using. The R7 was to me stressful on that sense up to the point that I sold it after two year of using it. Normally I keep my cameras for a longer time than that.

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Yes the R7 has a light hungry sensor so I only use it in good light. So did the 7D and 7D2. I'll wait it out until the R72 comes out (if it ever does) and see what it offers. The R6II is a keeper.