Canon R7 BIF with the R7

[Archibald]

I have never been that good of a BIF shooter, but I'm getting some frustrating behavior with the R7. I'm curious what you folks use as settings on the R7 and how well it works for you. Is this a useful thing to discuss here, or has it already been covered in the forum?

Below is a successful shot taken this morning, of a Canada Goose hybrid.

 

[ctitanic]

With that behind me, let me say "we" have no idea what "we" are talking about when "we" dismiss the idea that more is not "needed" and that results are "better" without it. All we're doing is avoiding that auto pilot button that we paid for.

And Canon, if you're listening, don't give us what we want if it doesn't work. We're happier with something that simply delivers on spec. And maybe even paid more if it did (how many of the initial reviews said something about this "not being the replacement for the 7D"?!)

Jake, I see your point and you are right to feel the way you are feeling.

For sure, if AutoPilot will not work in my car I do not want it to be sold mentioning AutoPilot as an option, I'M 100% WITH YOU. In fact, that's misleading potential buyers. Coming back to Canon, they should stop selling the R7 mentioning 30 fps as a feature considering that they know (they admitted that) that the are R7 does not have a processor capable of handling properly that rate of pictures. In fact, what they should be doing is to remove the H+ option or limit the frame rate to what the camera can handle via a firmware update.

At this point H+ at 30 fps is an option where you can get an elevated rate of out of focus pictures. And Canon MUST said that clearly in the manual and advertisements of the R7. But I do not think they will do that. They will fix it in R7 M2 making us paid for that new version and those like us that paid for M1 will have to live with this limitation.

Summarizing, the H+ DOES NOT WORK WELL IN THE R7, there will be and exists owners that will feel mislead because they paid for a product just because these 30 fps and there are other owners (like me) that just do not care because they do not use H+ and they bought the R7 because the other features included in the camera.

I feel more concern about reported cases where AF in the R7 was failing and it was not relative to H+. And there cases reported in this forum. Cases where the owners have to exchange their camera to get one where the AF works.

With everything I know now, the R7 is not a camera that I go around recommending, it's a camera that I only recommend to people that I know well and when I do that, I add "be prepared to return it if your feel that AF is not pleasing you".

I hope that I did not open another Pandora box...

 

[RedCobra]

I feel more concern about reported cases where AF in the R7 was failing and it was not relative to H+. And there cases reported in this forum. Cases where the owners have to exchange their camera to get one where the AF works.

With everything I know now, the R7 is not a camera that I go around recommending, it's a camera that I only recommend to people that I know well and when I do that, I add "be prepared to return it if your feel that AF is not pleasing you".

I hope that I did not open another Pandora box...

This is why I buy Canon refurb stuff. When you folks send your camera back, Canon USA repairs it to specs and then sells it as a refurb. I trust the refurbs more than the NIB ones.... YMMV. (My refurb R7 works like a champ)

 

[Only RF]

Never thought of a refurb that way. Some have challenged Duade's claim as anyone could have told him that. The next day he could have had a different response. No official announcement from Canon. I have talked to Canon support and have gotten different answers. That applies to anything. My cable company ,etc.

I don't really know because I've never used H+ but until there is more info I won't dismiss what he said. In H I think it works great and it may in H+. I don't come home and look at each file to see where the AF point is and if it was in or out of focus. Since I expect AF to be off occasionally I just cull and delete OOF files. I've never had a 100% keeper rate for BIF with any camera. I've always come home with something. If I was earning and needed all the files that would be a different story. I'd likely have an R3.

The readout speed for the R7 is not stellar. This is from one of Duade's videos. This alone tells you it does not have the horsepower. Not sure how that affects AF. The jack hammer shutter made me for the first time a little disappointed with a Canon body. I don't dislike the R7 but I will be a lot more picky if an R72 comes out. I won't be first in line. Stacked sensors are becoming standard in on camera manufacturers and Canon will have to respond.

I'd even be glad to have this if it ever comes out. I expect stacked sensors will win that race.

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[ctitanic]

Refurbished most of the time is a clean up and minor changes. Even if they change the mainboard there is nothing that will change what you see and have in current R7. H+ still not work properly.

 

[Only RF]

I watched Duade's video again. He states focus drift happens in low contrast and low light situations. Not great but not unsolvable. Great in good light. He also says the R7 is not the only ML that has these issues. Duade suggests some settings at the end. I may have stated that I've never shot in ES and H+ so that's maybe why I have not really noticed. Also I don't need 90 files of a perched bird so I've have no issues slowing the FPS down in low light.

 

[RickyRed]

I changed my entire approach to ML cameras. Had an R5 which I sold and now have the R6II and R7. My approach to all of them is I expect them to fail which makes life for me easier. This new tech is phenomenal but it is new. As they keep training their AI with FW updates and new cameras it will keep getting better.

I don't care why it failed. I just worry about how to get it do to want I want, not what it wants. With my 7D for 5 years I shot with both AF on and metering on the shutter button. I never had an issue keeping the shutter button half pressed while tracking and burst shooting. I decided to map AF to the AF-ON button for my 7D2. It actually took a little while to adjust to that.

I also shoot M with auto ISO, continuous H (not H+) but for the R7 in ES. I can't stand the loud shutter. I use EFCS for my R6II.

I changed my entire approach to ML bodies. I may not be using all of the sub options in the Detail Set but it works for me. I left both AF and Metering on the shutter button so I'm back at half pressing the shutter again. Note: I've also disabled both the joystick and LCD to move the AF point/s around. It's too slow for me.

This frees up the AF-ON. I have programmed the AF-ON for Single Point AF. The * button for Zone AF which is for BIF. A rarely use Spot Focus so I mapped that to the DOF. On the R7 it won't map the magnifier button for an AF mode. The R5 and R6II allow that option which is called the AF Point selection button.

I'm always on Whole Area AF and Eye Detect. I've mapped other buttons to get in and out of Eye detect when needed but I'm in Eye almost all of the time. For the R7 I use the lower cross key.

I always let the camera do its thing first by pressing the shutter half way. I paid a lot of money for that tech and it does well most of the time. If it can't find the eye it will focus on the head. If it can't focus on the head it will do the body and go back to the eye when it can.

For a total failure where it won't focus on bird at all at I'll press a BBF. Typically the * for BIF (Zone AF) but I have used the AF-ON with single point as well.

I physically move the camera so the AF point/s land on the bird and then release the BBF. The AF point/s can be anywhere on the bird. It does not have to be on the the eye. That is the cameras job. As long as your subject is in reasonable focus it will find the eye when you release the BBF.

With this method I don't have to lift my thumb off one BBF to press another. With the shutter half pressed I just toggle the one I need as many times as I need to while tracking a bird.

I even use this for static birds. Those small birds don't give you much time. I move the camera so the AF point/s lands on it, I release the BBF and then recompose. Much faster for me than moving the AF point around. I've even used Zone AF for static and it works great. You just need to get the bird in reasonable focus. It's even focused on the post a bird is sitting on and when I release the BFF the eye snaps in.

I also have the AF Preview enabled. Page 3 of the AF menus. With it enabled it will start to look for an eye when the camera wakes up before you press any buttons. When tracking a BIF and I happen to lift my finger past half way off the shutter it kicks in and continues to AF.

Also I've read that some like to use a BBF first to get the bird in focus and then switch to Eye Detect. I prefer to use Eye Detect and let the camera do its thing first.

My approach is a little different to the conventional mapping the AF-On for AF. AF-ON has been around for a long time and Eye Detect is new. Just trying to think outside the box.

I totally agree. I Use the R7 and R5 for birds. On the R7, you can use center focus point and expand with tracking. Once you get the focus point on the bird. The AF locks on to your subject. and will track it even thru trees... The R5, your limited with focus point options and tracking. What I am trying to get across is. You still have to work at landing the AF point on the subject. The quicker you can, the faster the af will lock and track.. I was just out photographing Yellowlegs and dunlins in flight with the R7. The camera is set up mostly stock. ECS, servo. one shot, and case one, I have the star button set for servo or one shot. Af. Thats it.. One shot at a time and make a good one.. Practice, practice and more practice.

 

[Only RF]

I totally agree. I Use the R7 and R5 for birds. On the R7, you can use center focus point and expand with tracking. Once you get the focus point on the bird. The AF locks on to your subject. and will track it even thru trees... The R5, your limited with focus point options and tracking. What I am trying to get across is. You still have to work at landing the AF point on the subject. The quicker you can, the faster the af will lock and track.. I was just out photographing Yellowlegs and dunlins in flight with the R7. The camera is set up mostly stock. ECS, servo. one shot, and case one, I have the star button set for servo or one shot. Af. Thats it.. One shot at a time and make a good one.. Practice, practice and more practice. View attachment 21375

Exactly. I like others have many years of experience doing that with DSLR's. Had no choice but to land the AF point on the subject. This is why I used Zone AF as well as Single for BIF with my 7D2 and 5D4. Had no eye tracking but was still effective.

Only difference is I let the camera find the subject first and if it can't I then intervene. Nice to have so many programming options so you can fine tune your shooting style. Yes I agree. Once it starts tracking AF will hold on really well. You still have to move the camera and track. ES does make that easier. With my R and the awful frame to frame blackout you really had to antiscipate where the bird would be. That body also had good AF but was challenging for BIF. Made it a bit of fun.

 

[Archibald]

I did some BIF shooting a couple days ago, with High Speed Display ON, and Whole Area AF. The camera found the targets quickly, but hardly ever found the eye for flying birds (but usually did for static birds). I think the problem was camera movement - I was not fixing the rig on the bird steady enough for the AF to do its job. Despite this, some shots came out OK.

Canada Goose

 

[Only RF]

Not much contrast in that first one so not surprising. Second one better but the R7 does need the light. If the yellow of the eye was brighter. As long as it got your subject in focus. AF is snappy.

 

[Archibald]

Not much contrast in that first one so not surprising. Second one better but the R7 does need the light. If the yellow of the eye was brighter. As long as it got your subject in focus. AF is snappy.

Yeah, it was overcast, not very bight, and contrast was low.

It couldn't find the eye most of the time, but a couple of shots showed a small red square, but a bit off the eye. Possibly it focused on the eye and the subject shifted by the time the image was captured.

 

[Stompthestroller]

Capturing the eye on birds with dark head pigmentation does present problems. Even in what I take to be reasonable light some of my photos are a bit disappointing.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I think you're just asking too much there, between the poor light and the extreme magnification.

 

[Only RF]

I came across this last night. He shoots the way I do expect for the AF mode he chooses before it goes into Eye Detect. Eh uses Expansion AF but you could use Single, Spot or even Zone AF. I start with Full Area AF.

I thought about this and re-mapped my bodies to try it. My start point was Single Point AF. After testing on Owen the test owl who does not fly I decided to go back to what I was doing. Reason being is for BIF I'd have to have that AF point, be it Expansion, Single or Spot on the bird for the camera to focus on. Using Whole Area the entire array of AF points in the EVF is looking for the bird.

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[Stompthestroller]

My R7 is set up according to the author of let’s go birding on you tube as per his 30 minute video, he has another video setting up back button focusing . It works well for me however I am satisfied quite easily as an enthusiastic amateur.

 

[Only RF]

The 3 point AF is inserting. I was using it but never really broke down that way. That video gave me some ideas for a revamp of my BBF layout. I'm still using the shutter button for both AF and Metering.

I've assign the * button to toggle through the three AF modes. Single, Spot and Whole Area AF. As I did before I will always start with Whole Area AF because the entire array of AF points is in use. Great for BIF and for static objects as well. Let AI do its job first and find the eye. That is what I paid the big dollars for.

If Whole Area is struggling I can toggle to Single or Spot AF. I prefer Single point AF because it is larger so more contrast but use Spot when needed. For example Spot AF for small birds in thick foliage. That was the issue with my R7. You can't map the magnify button for an AF mode but you can map the R6II AF point selection button for AF mode. For the R7 I mapped Spot to the DOF which I did not like. That problem is now solved.

The white broken pre-focus square will be is active in all AF modes. Always looking for an eye.

Previously I assigned the AF-ON to Single Point AF for Eye Detect override. The * button for Zone AF but that button now has a different job. AF-ON now engages Zone AF for the Eye Detect override. Let's say the camera is struggling with a bird flying. I don't need precision. I just need to get it into some type of reasonable focus. Toggle the AF-ON as many times as need to achieve that and let AI do the rest when back in Whole Area. Even works great on static objects.

I can hardly wait to try this out.

 

[Stompthestroller]

Hope you are sorted now

 

[RickyRed]

Feel free to discuss settings. But the "frustrating behavior" may not be as much setting related as it is the camera itself, and that we've spoken about quite a bit here. I shoot with both the R5 and the R7, and if I could get a camera with the R5's IQ and focus stickiness with the R7's focus system, and not pay as much as the R3, I'd get rid of both of them and buy two.

The R7 grabs the desired focus point better than any of my Canon R-series cameras, but it doesn't always grab or hold focus on that point. This has been discussed elsewhere here. Long story short - great focus system tied to an underpowered processor. This can be overcome by shooting fewer FPS, but the FPS is why we got the camera.

I did not buy the R7 for the 30FPS. The R7 does a nice job of replacing the 90D, but does not replace my 7DII. I would be more than happy to pay the price of a R6II for a powerhouse apsc That finally replaces the 7D series. Another thought. The R5 is a powerhouse that chews thru battery's

three times as fast as the R7.

 

[Only RF]

I did not buy the R7 for the 30FPS. The R7 does a nice job of replacing the 90D, but does not replace my 7DII. I would be more than happy to pay the price of a R6II for a powerhouse apsc That finally replaces the 7D series. Another thought. The R5 is a powerhouse that chews thru battery'sView attachment 23302 three times as fast as the R7.

Why does it not replace the 7DII for you?

 

[Snappy St Loes]

A couple of recent BIF captures with my trusty R7/RF800 combo...