Canon R7 BIF with the R7

[Archibald]

I have never been that good of a BIF shooter, but I'm getting some frustrating behavior with the R7. I'm curious what you folks use as settings on the R7 and how well it works for you. Is this a useful thing to discuss here, or has it already been covered in the forum?

Below is a successful shot taken this morning, of a Canada Goose hybrid.

 

[Arbarthisti]

BIF setting on the R7 I generally use the following
Shutter button metering only, rear af button set to AF and Eye, star button tracking on tracking off. Depth of field button (front of camera) servo on/servo off. Perhaps you could mention what settings you are using as a starting point.

There are a number of good tips on you tube for setting focus up try out whistling wings photography or duade paton to name a few.

 

[Jake Shoots Birds]

Feel free to discuss settings. But the "frustrating behavior" may not be as much setting related as it is the camera itself, and that we've spoken about quite a bit here. I shoot with both the R5 and the R7, and if I could get a camera with the R5's IQ and focus stickiness with the R7's focus system, and not pay as much as the R3, I'd get rid of both of them and buy two.

The R7 grabs the desired focus point better than any of my Canon R-series cameras, but it doesn't always grab or hold focus on that point. This has been discussed elsewhere here. Long story short - great focus system tied to an underpowered processor. This can be overcome by shooting fewer FPS, but the FPS is why we got the camera.

 

[Archibald]

My issue seems to be grabbing of the subject (= focus point?) when doing birds in flight.

My typical experience is, I raise the camera and aim at the BIF. I see the bird in the viewfinder and press AF-On. But then the AF goes hunting and the bird disappears in a blur. All I see is sky. I re-focus on a tree or something to get some focus back, and that works, but it takes time and the bird is gone.
I understand the R7 has limitations, and my BIF skills might not be the best. But my settings could also be a factor. And it is the latter that I'm asking about here.

I shoot M with auto ISO, continuous H (not H+), EFCS, hi speed display ON, using backbutton focus (AF-ON button). The shutter does metering only. I go into the Detail set menu for the AF-On button and place checkmarks against AF servo, Subject tracking On, Animals and Eye. I am not settled on Area and don't see much difference in behavior between 1-point and full area. But usually I'm on 1-point. It finds subjects way outside of that spot. Sometimes I set the area for full, and I get much the same behavior.

I have the * button set for spot AF, but never use it for BIF.

 

[Only RF]

I changed my entire approach to ML cameras. Had an R5 which I sold and now have the R6II and R7. My approach to all of them is I expect them to fail which makes life for me easier. This new tech is phenomenal but it is new. As they keep training their AI with FW updates and new cameras it will keep getting better.

I don't care why it failed. I just worry about how to get it do to want I want, not what it wants. With my 7D for 5 years I shot with both AF on and metering on the shutter button. I never had an issue keeping the shutter button half pressed while tracking and burst shooting. I decided to map AF to the AF-ON button for my 7D2. It actually took a little while to adjust to that.

I also shoot M with auto ISO, continuous H (not H+) but for the R7 in ES. I can't stand the loud shutter. I use EFCS for my R6II.

I changed my entire approach to ML bodies. I may not be using all of the sub options in the Detail Set but it works for me. I left both AF and Metering on the shutter button so I'm back at half pressing the shutter again. Note: I've also disabled both the joystick and LCD to move the AF point/s around. It's too slow for me.

This frees up the AF-ON. I have programmed the AF-ON for Single Point AF. The * button for Zone AF which is for BIF. A rarely use Spot Focus so I mapped that to the DOF. On the R7 it won't map the magnifier button for an AF mode. The R5 and R6II allow that option which is called the AF Point selection button.

I'm always on Whole Area AF and Eye Detect. I've mapped other buttons to get in and out of Eye detect when needed but I'm in Eye almost all of the time. For the R7 I use the lower cross key.

I always let the camera do its thing first by pressing the shutter half way. I paid a lot of money for that tech and it does well most of the time. If it can't find the eye it will focus on the head. If it can't focus on the head it will do the body and go back to the eye when it can.

For a total failure where it won't focus on bird at all at I'll press a BBF. Typically the * for BIF (Zone AF) but I have used the AF-ON with single point as well.

I physically move the camera so the AF point/s land on the bird and then release the BBF. The AF point/s can be anywhere on the bird. It does not have to be on the the eye. That is the cameras job. As long as your subject is in reasonable focus it will find the eye when you release the BBF.

With this method I don't have to lift my thumb off one BBF to press another. With the shutter half pressed I just toggle the one I need as many times as I need to while tracking a bird.

I even use this for static birds. Those small birds don't give you much time. I move the camera so the AF point/s lands on it, I release the BBF and then recompose. Much faster for me than moving the AF point around. I've even used Zone AF for static and it works great. You just need to get the bird in reasonable focus. It's even focused on the post a bird is sitting on and when I release the BFF the eye snaps in.

I also have the AF Preview enabled. Page 3 of the AF menus. With it enabled it will start to look for an eye when the camera wakes up before you press any buttons. When tracking a BIF and I happen to lift my finger past half way off the shutter it kicks in and continues to AF.

Also I've read that some like to use a BBF first to get the bird in focus and then switch to Eye Detect. I prefer to use Eye Detect and let the camera do its thing first.

My approach is a little different to the conventional mapping the AF-On for AF. AF-ON has been around for a long time and Eye Detect is new. Just trying to think outside the box.

 

[Only RF]

I had a few typos in that last post. I'm really bad for that. I'm re-reading and correcting them. Sorry about that.

 

[Archibald]

I had a few typos in that last post. I'm really bad for that. I'm re-reading and correcting them. Sorry about that.

LOL, no problem! I get what you said. Sort of.

I am pondering the Preview AF setting. Not sure what it does. I will have to review my notes on how the R7 behaves with all its white, green and blue squares, with the different cryptic outlines, and try to figure it out in that context.

Your method is very different from mine, and basically doesn't help to troubleshoot my settings. I could go over to your way and try it out, though. But it gets complicated fast. Some time ago I tried to go back to shutter button focus. It seemed to work well at times, yet there were other times when BB was better. Also I was trying to have settings that would harmonize with my R5. And back button seemed to do that.

Figuring the R7 out ain't easy, and understanding the R5 and getting the two to work about the same is tough.

And I'm still not sure that my issue is the settings. It might be my lousy technique. Sometimes it works, though!! Here is a gull in flight.

 

[Only RF]

What part of "sort of"can I clear up?

Activate AF Preview and see what it does. Use it on a partner or friend. Wake the camera up and don't press any buttons. Then activate and deactivate AF. It has to be the white single lined broken square. Not the double lined one. That has a different function.

 

[Only RF]

Either way it looks like you are doing OK. No one gets 100% keeper rate for BIF.

 

[Archibald]

With my settings, the R7 finds a subject and puts a broken white square around it without me pressing any buttons. To me that is previewing the focus target. It does that with Preview AF disabled or enabled.

 

[Only RF]

With my settings, the R7 finds a subject and puts a broken white square around it without me pressing any buttons. To me that is previewing the focus target. It does that with Preview AF disabled or enabled.

Around it or on the eye? Mine is always on the eye.

 

[Archibald]

Yes, it goes to the eye. On/around. It squares the circle.

(I'm just testing this on photos now instead of real birds.)

 

[Only RF]

Yes, it goes to the eye. On/around. It squares the circle.

(I'm just testing this on photos now instead of real birds.)

That works too. So does the TV when testing Eye Focus as my wife runs away from me when I try to test on her. Many, many years ago I took a shot of her and sent it to her family before she approved it. Looked fine to me. The mistakes we make.

Seems to be working correctly. I find it very handy. It also tells me if the camera is going to focus on the subject/eye. If not it prompts me to use a BBF.

 

[Only RF]

Hey Archibald. A perfect example and a picture is worth a thousand words. I was looking for something else and found this. Jan's mapping approach is different than mine but the results are the same. I have left AF on the shutter for Eye Detect and the AF-ON and * for the overrides. I like to also use Zone AF which mapped to the * button. My base AF is Single Point AF (not Spot) and is mapped to the AF-ON. I use Spot AF for other reasons.

Between minutes 9:30 and 10:30. At minute 10:15 he didn't even need to be near the bird and it focused. At minute 10:20 he physically moves the camera so the Spot Focus lands on the bird. Notice it is on the body, not the head. Then when he goes back into Eye Detect it snaps in. Sometimes I think people think you have put the AF point on the head when you do that but it just needs to be on the body. Let the camera do its job.

I've even used Zone AF doing that and it worked great. Depends on how how much junk is around the subject.

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[Archibald]

Hey Archibald. A perfect example and a picture is worth a thousand words. I was looking for something else and found this. Jan's mapping approach is different than mine but the results are the same. I have left AF on the shutter for Eye Detect and the AF-ON and * for the overrides. I like to also use Zone AF which mapped to the * button. My base AF is Single Point AF (not Spot) and is mapped to the AF-ON. I use Spot AF for other reasons.

Between minutes 9:30 and 10:30. At minute 10:15 he didn't even need to be near the bird and it focused. At minute 10:20 he physically moves the camera so the Spot Focus lands on the bird. Notice it is on the body, not the head. Then when he goes back into Eye Detect it snaps in. Sometimes I think people think you have put the AF point on the head when you do that but it just needs to be on the body. Let the camera do its job.

I've even used Zone AF doing that and it worked great. Depends on how how much junk is around the subject.

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Thanks, will have a look. But it is youtube!, and a long one!! I better still have a look when I can. (Don't want to make noise now.)

 

[ctitanic]

Long story short - great focus system tied to an underpowered processor. This can be overcome by shooting fewer FPS, but the FPS is why we got the camera.

Exactly. Shoot less shots and you will get better results. Who needs 30 fps! We used to shoot 5 fps, then 10, after that 15 now we are at 30 and we think that it's not enough!

 

[Only RF]

Thanks, will have a look. But it is youtube!, and a long one!! I better still have a look when I can. (Don't want to make noise now.)

NP. Just in case you just need to watch that one minute when you have time or are even interested. While social media is flooded with disinformation I’ve leaned a lot from reputable people. I don’t always agree with a few of Jan’s (or others) AF options but he has some good info.

 

[Only RF]

Exactly. Shoot less shots and you will get better results. Who needs 30 fps! We used to shoot 5 fps, then 10, after that 15 now we are at 30 and we think that it's not enough!

Yes that is one part. I used H with ES instead of H+ from day 1 simply because I didn’t feel like culling hundreds of extra files. So I never noticed anything. If my livelihood depended on photography then I’d likely have the R3 and cull through all those files to get the ones that will sell. Comes with the territory.

Part 2 is how to make your camera do what you want it to do as quickly and as easily as possible when it is not cooperating. How to fine tune it to your shooting style. I never worry about why AF failed, I just take over and get it back on track.

 

[TonyB]

Ron @ Whistling Wings Photography is one of the better bird in flight photographers and Central Florida tour operators. I’ve been with him on Blue Cypress Lake shooting osprey and owls and he really knows his stuff, and he knows Canon cameras. He’s the person that introduced me to the R5 and I haven’t looked back.

Ron has a YouTube channel. Maybe checking out some of his videos will help with getting the settings. Here a few of his R7 videos but he has more on AF settings on the Canon R3, R5 and R7

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- YouTube

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[Only RF]

Ron has good videos. I think I’ve seen them all. I emailed him to ask a question about the R5 a few years ago and he replied. I didn’t expect that. Nice fellow

 

[Archibald]

Ron @ Whistling Wings Photography is one of the better bird in flight photographers and Central Florida tour operators. I’ve been with him on Blue Cypress Lake shooting osprey and owls and he really knows his stuff, and he knows Canon cameras. He’s the person that introduced me to the R5 and I haven’t looked back.

Ron has a YouTube channel. Maybe checking out some of his videos will help with getting the settings. Here a few of his R7 videos but he has more on AF settings on the Canon R3, R5 and R7

- YouTube

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youtu.be

- YouTube

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youtu.be

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Thank you, TonyB. I will set aside some time and watch these.

(I've been with Ron too, also on Blue Cypress Lake!)

 

[Only RF]

I have even have more videos but in the end it's basically all the same. All the presenters have to work with the same menus, they just have their own sauce for mapping buttons for what they want to achieve for their shooting styles.

We have no real control over AF. Either the camera see contrast or it doesn't. We can't fine tune that. These days throw in eye recognition with contrast.

We have always had control over AF tracking characteristics after initial focus is achieved. They are all bound to the same Case # menus and Switching Tracked Subjects (STS) options. Most are pretty similar with their choices. Tracking Sensitivity set to -1 or 2 has been staple forever. For Accel/Decel I'm usually in +1 or +2. STS ether 1 (factory) or 0. After setting that up I would not spend a lot of time in those menus.

Next is how you want initial AF to be achieved. Let the system find the eye or use a non eye mode to get the subject in focus first and then flip over to Eye detect. I prefer to let the system to have a go at it first and then go into recovery mode if I need to.

If the camera successfully focuses on and tracks a BIF the AF box may change in size. It may switch to the head, to the body, back to the eye, back to the body and so on. This all depends on how far the bird is and how well the system can make out the eye. I just keep tracking and shooting when that happens. It is what it is. You want to make sure both Subject and Eye detect are selected.

Recovery. This is the most important part to me. Since I expect AF to fail I don't worry about why it did. If AF goes off the bird completely I switch to a non-eye detect mode, get the AF point/s back on to it and then flip back to Eye detect. That's the sauce part. Users need to decide how they want Eye initiate and how to take control if the system is struggling. Which buttons to map and what AF mode (single, spot or zone) to use for the override. That was I showed that 1 minute segment of Jan's video. He used Spot focus for the override. Spot is not my first choice for that. I prefer Single point and sometimes Zone AF but each to their own.

 

[Only RF]

I should also add. The main reason I referred to that 1 minute clip. If you use an AF override and say you use Spot focus you don't have to get it on the head or eye. Just get it anywhere on the body and then go back to Eye detect and let the camera find the eye. Much faster than trying to get it on the head (or eye) especially for BIF.

Sometimes on other sites I think some couldn't quite get that part. They thought they had to get the spot focus point on the eye or head before going back to Eye detect. You don't.

 

[Archibald]

Since almost all my BIFs are surprises, I have no way of knowing in advance if the bird is going to fly straight or chaotically or behind things. So I don't know of any way to program the cases beforehand to match the shooting situation. Therefore I leave it on Auto.

I have been tied up with other things the last few days, but want to get out and practice more. I think my problem is mainly getting the bird in the frame and in one place long enough for the AF system to be able to concentrate on it. In other words, it's a technique issue. Plus R7 limitations too of course, but I suspect mostly my poor technique.

 

[Only RF]

The system has its limitations and sometimes there isn't much you can do. Even with Eye detect and whole area we have ti try and anticipate the birds movement. That is not easy to do with really erratic birds. You'd probably get better results with the R3 but you spend a lot more. I would let get myself get too frustrated over that. How many BIF shots of swallows get posted? Not very many.

At one time Ron liked Auto but I think he went back to controlling TS and Accel/Decel himself. Others swear by it.

I thought long and hard about Auto and here is my take. Tracking Sensitivity. You set it from -2 to +2 and both end do as advertised. I've done controlled tests. -2 will hang onto your original subject for a second and not refocus on obstacle. +2 will immediately focus on the obstacle. How could the system possibly know what a user wants? To hang on to the original subject or let it go? Since I believe most people want to hang onto the original subject I think Canon weighted TS towards -1 or -2 in Auto.

Accel/Decel in Auto. I can see the system automatically compensating when subjects are stopping/starting and slowing down/speeding up.

I think Auto is a good choice.

 

[Archibald]

Ron @ Whistling Wings Photography is one of the better bird in flight photographers and Central Florida tour operators. I’ve been with him on Blue Cypress Lake shooting osprey and owls and he really knows his stuff, and he knows Canon cameras. He’s the person that introduced me to the R5 and I haven’t looked back.

Ron has a YouTube channel. Maybe checking out some of his videos will help with getting the settings. Here a few of his R7 videos but he has more on AF settings on the Canon R3, R5 and R7

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So I watched the first two videos. The first went by a bit too fast and too much emphasis on the R3 and R5. I will watch it again at the right time.

The second was just on the R7. I discovered I had High Speed Display OFF! Very odd, because in my notes it says On. So that was an error, now fixed. That could help with BIF.

I did find it odd that Ron favored the electronic shutter. That will give rolling shutter effects with BIF. He also didn't go into the Detail Set of the AF-ON button. The settings there are important.

Time to go out and do some tests.

 

[Jake Shoots Birds]

Exactly. Shoot less shots and you will get better results. Who needs 30 fps! We used to shoot 5 fps, then 10, after that 15 now we are at 30 and we think that it's not enough!

I fundamentally do not agree with "we". It's easy to parse "need" historically, so please defend it with cars, airplanes, the internet, indoor plumbing, ...

Shooting birds in flight we lived with what we had, so sure, I did a lot of shooting at 5-10fps, and I was happy with what I got. But if I had all those shots back and in a catalog I would happily show you hundreds of series where in the one to two tenths of a second between a pair of shots the perfect moment existed. But the shots on either side were useless So the moment exists only in memory. We "needed" it but didn't have it, so we didn't complain about it to others because the option wasn't available. But when it was there was rejoicing, and when it worked we saw what we were missing.

If I "needed" 30fps in a "there's no way I can live without it" way then I would pony up for an R3 that can actually perform at that rate. My problem with the R7 is that Canon gives you 30fps and then laughs as they say, "Made you look!! It doesn't work." It's like a car that tells you it will drive itself but once in a while it doesn't see the truck sitting across the road in front of you. Sure, who "needs" to be behind the wheel and not drive, but there are times you want to use what you paid for. So you turn it on and turn around to get something in the back seat, and ... do you want this to be the time it decided not to do what it said it does? What you paid for it to do?

With that behind me, let me say "we" have no idea what "we" are talking about when "we" dismiss the idea that more is not "needed" and that results are "better" without it. All we're doing is avoiding that auto pilot button that we paid for.

And Canon, if you're listening, don't give us what we want if it doesn't work. We're happier with something that simply delivers on spec. And maybe even paid more if it did (how many of the initial reviews said something about this "not being the replacement for the 7D"?!)

 

[RedCobra]

Was at Conowingo shooting Eagles yesterday. Heavy fog and low light when we arrived, so I did some non-scientific experiments. Had my OMS OM-1 with the 150-400 f/4.5 (FFE 300-800), my new R7 with the RF 100-500, and then my R5 with the RF 100-500. Shooting a blue heron sitting on a rock across the way......
First cam to achieve focus lock at 800mm (500 for the R5) as the light improved and the fog lifted, was the OM-1, second was the R5, third was the R7. My point for the day was to see how the R7 compared primarily at 800mm as compared to the OM-1 at 800mm. Once the light was decent, they all did the job, however in low light the R7 was the worst.
IQ wise, just looking at shots in LrC, in good light You really can't tell the pics apart when shot in good light (no crop or the R5 wins).

AF for birds in flight, the R7 locked on to the flying Cormorants (Eagles were asleep I guess) but didn't hold the lock as well as the other two cams particularly as they dropped below the tree line. Best for birds was the OM-1.
OM-1 rig costs $9500. R5 rig was roughly $6700, and the R7 rig cost $4300.
All anecdotal musings.
YMMV

 

[Archibald]

Was at Conowingo shooting Eagles yesterday. Heavy fog and low light when we arrived, so I did some non-scientific experiments. Had my OMS OM-1 with the 150-400 f/4.5 (FFE 300-800), my new R7 with the RF 100-500, and then my R5 with the RF 100-500. Shooting a blue heron sitting on a rock across the way......
First cam to achieve focus lock at 800mm (500 for the R5) as the light improved and the fog lifted, was the OM-1, second was the R5, third was the R7. My point for the day was to see how the R7 compared primarily at 800mm as compared to the OM-1 at 800mm. Once the light was decent, they all did the job, however in low light the R7 was the worst.
IQ wise, just looking at shots in LrC, in good light You really can't tell the pics apart when shot in good light (no crop or the R5 wins).

AF for birds in flight, the R7 locked on to the flying Cormorants (Eagles were asleep I guess) but didn't hold the lock as well as the other two cams particularly as they dropped below the tree line. Best for birds was the OM-1.
OM-1 rig costs $9500. R5 rig was roughly $6700, and the R7 rig cost $4300.
All anecdotal musings.
YMMV

Interesting comparison! Had to read it a couple of times. Performance seems to correlate with cost and weight.

I'm assuming here without having seen the pics that there was no severe cropping involved, but wondering about the results if it were.

 

[Only RF]

My summary of the R7. It may have some limitations which I didn't notice because I never shot in H+ in ES. I didn't want to cull all of those files. I find the AF pretty amazing. From the first day when I really started using it (not practising in the condo ) I was pretty impressed how quickly it locked on an how well it tracked. It locked onto small bird heads in big ponds even with distracting reeds, etc. For BIF it just tracked. The AF point it adjusted the size as needed but just followed the bird. For really erratic birds all my R bodies have been challenging. I've never had a 1DX body nor do I have or tried an R3 to see how much difference it makes.

However this is the first Canon body I can say I was a tad disappointed in. The mechanical shutter is awful, for me anyway. I don't even like it in EFCS. Seemed like Canon cheeped out a little.

The R5 specs show 14 bit for M/EFCS shutter and 12 bit for ES. It does not say that in the R7 manual but I find it hard to believe that processor could maintain 14 bit in ES when it can't keep up to AF at 30fps. The fellow from Photons to Photons measured it and say says it is 12 bit in ES. I'd prefer to shoot in 14 but then there is this. Canon stopped posting that info for other bodies as well.

14-bit vs 12-bit RAW - Can You Tell The Difference?

photographylife.com

The R3 might be able to handle it. Here is a screen shot of unofficial readout speeds from one of Duade Paton's videos.