Depth of field - APS-C vs Full Frame

Cubsprout19

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If I use my RF100mm macro on the R6 at f/11, and then swap the body to the R7 at f/11- keeping subject distance the same, what is the change in DOF please? Is it the new DOF equivalent to the R6 DOF*1.6. I've looked online and there seem to be contradictory views on this, adn I'm confused. I always thought that an APS-C camera had a greater DOF at a given focal length at the same distance and aperture than a Full frame camera.

Any help very gratefully received :unsure:
 
Solution
Download a depth of field calculator. And app called Digital DOF is free and easy to use.

In your circumstances, DOF would be shallower with APS-C.

Now if you moved back for identical framing, APS-C would have greater depth of field. Or if you changed focal length to a 62.5mm lens and kept the same subject distance, APS-C would also have greater depth of field.

But the same lens from the same distance at the same aperture with the only variable being the sensor, then APS-C actually has shallower depth of field. Consider what would happen on full frame if you used a 160mm lens from that spot.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I looked at online DOF calculators, but couldn't find one with the R6 or R7 as a choice of...
I would compare the two for the same composition - the same framing at the subject. That is how we would normally shoot. And then FF gets about the same DOF (and the same diffraction) at one stop narrower, compared to APS-C.

I shoot my macro bugs at f/11 on my R7 and go to f/16 using the R5.

Subject distance is a problematic measure because it does not easily convert to magnification or framing at macro distances.
 
Download a depth of field calculator. And app called Digital DOF is free and easy to use.

In your circumstances, DOF would be shallower with APS-C.

Now if you moved back for identical framing, APS-C would have greater depth of field. Or if you changed focal length to a 62.5mm lens and kept the same subject distance, APS-C would also have greater depth of field.

But the same lens from the same distance at the same aperture with the only variable being the sensor, then APS-C actually has shallower depth of field. Consider what would happen on full frame if you used a 160mm lens from that spot.
 
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Download a depth of field calculator. And app called Digital DOF is free and easy to use.

In your circumstances, DOF would be shallower with APS-C.
This is correct if the uncropped images are compared. However, the subject would look smaller in the R6 photo, so would need to be cropped afterwards on the computer to give the same image. And when that is done, the DOF is the same.

DOF is a very tricky subject because the answer depends on the settings and assumptions.
 
I always thought that an APS-C camera had a greater DOF at a given focal length at the same distance and aperture than a full frame camera.
For the example given, I think that the size of the sensor is irrelevant:
  • same lens + same aperture + same distance to subject = same depth of field
… David
 
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If I use my RF100mm macro on the R6 at f/11, and then swap the body to the R7 at f/11- keeping subject distance the same, what is the change in DOF?
Question : What is the change in DOF?
Answer : None, as far as I can tell.

The centre two-thirds of a full-frame image has the same dimensions (22.2 x 14.8 mm) as an APS-C image, resulting in identical DOF for that area as the image from a crop sensor. Why would there be a difference?

… David
 
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For the example given, I think that the size of the sensor is irrelevant:
  • same lens + same aperture + same distance to subject = same depth of field
… David
LOL, I just said DOF is tricky because of settings and assumptions.

It's true that the image on the sensor is the same for both cases. But with the R6, if the image is not cropped, and the final images are presented at the same size, then the R6 image of the subject is smaller. So the R6 DOF is deeper.

If you crop the FF image to match the R7 image, then indeed DOF is the same.
 
I don't see the situation where the DOF changes by cropping the image.
It is in how DOF is defined. DOF is the zone where sharpness is acceptable, usually defined by the circle of confusion (which in turn comes from assumptions about the final image size, viewing distance, and human visual acuity).

Cropping magnifies blurriness. Uncropped, the near and far limits are slightly blurry, but acceptable. Enlarging those areas makes the blurriness greater and no longer acceptable. New boundaries need to be placed where the sharpness is just acceptable. So the DOF shrinks.

Don't believe me? Few do. There are DOF calculators online that can give you the answers. They will show you that Stephen is right about APSC being shallower and that David is wrong about them being the same.

BTW, there is an analogy in noise. It's baked in to the image, one might say, but cropping makes it appear worse. Does cropping or enlarging make the image noisier? How is that possible? But it appears to.

DOF was understood a hundred years ago. We have the equations and can calculate it to many decimal places. But today most still don't understand it.

But those DOF equations and calculators are approximations, actually. They assume that the lenses are thin, but they are not. DOF is affected by the pupil magnification, which is ignored because it is an annoying complication. A simple flat lens has the same pupil size looking at it from the front or the back. But it is different with most complex modern lenses. Try it - take the lens off your camera and look at it from the front and then the back. Pupil magnification affects DOF, because DOF is the result of the exit pupil size.

Plus, viewing conditions vary all over the place. Smart phone pics look so sharp. The same pic can disappoint on a big monitor.

DOF equations and calculators are still useful because they give good approximate results that work in many situations, and can tell us about trends and principles.
 
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I would compare the two for the same composition - the same framing at the subject. That is how we would normally shoot. And then FF gets about the same DOF (and the same diffraction) at one stop narrower, compared to APS-C.

I shoot my macro bugs at f/11 on my R7 and go to f/16 using the R5.

Subject distance is a problematic measure because it does not easily convert to magnification or framing at macro distances.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, much appreciated. As soon as I'd posted the question I thought that I could try to take the same shot of the same subject - probably a ruler, from exactly the same place with R6 then R7 and just eyeball the results. I'm happy that the R7 image will make the subject look larger in the frame, but was curious about the DOF.
 
I don't see the situation where the DOF changes by cropping the image.
It’s all predicated on the assumption that the final image is blown up to the same viewing size and viewed from the same distance. If you crop and blow up an image, then everything is blown up. The noise. The blurry parts. The flaws. Everything. This the zone of acceptable sharpness (aka: Depth of Field) changes.
 
I think it's a slippery slope to lump all of that in with DOF. By similar logic, if I hold a photograph 6" from my face, and then look at it from 3' away, the DOF is different each time.
 
But seriously, we are not going to change the definition of DOF. It is defined assuming standard viewing distances and normal viewers. And that is the right way to do it.

So an 8x10" print might be viewed in one's hands, whereas a billboard of the same photo will be viewed from 30 feet away. The subtended angles are about the same.

But yeah, if you hold that 8x10" print really close, or very far away, perceptions of sharpness change. That does not change the calculated DOF.
 
Download a depth of field calculator. And app called Digital DOF is free and easy to use.

In your circumstances, DOF would be shallower with APS-C.

Now if you moved back for identical framing, APS-C would have greater depth of field. Or if you changed focal length to a 62.5mm lens and kept the same subject distance, APS-C would also have greater depth of field.

But the same lens from the same distance at the same aperture with the only variable being the sensor, then APS-C actually has shallower depth of field. Consider what would happen on full frame if you used a 160mm lens from that spot.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I looked at online DOF calculators, but couldn't find one with the R6 or R7 as a choice of camera. The explanation you've given makes perfect sense -thank you again for such a well worded easy to undrstand answer.(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)
 
Solution
It’s all predicated on the assumption that the final image is blown up to the same viewing size and viewed from the same distance. If you crop and blow up an image, then everything is blown up. The noise. The blurry parts. The flaws. Everything. This the zone of acceptable sharpness (aka: Depth of Field) changes.
Appreciate your thoughts, but I'm not cropping the image. Same shot from the same place with same lens just 2 different bodies. JustUs7 above has the answer I needed, but thanks for taking the time to reply. (y)
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I looked at online DOF calculators, but couldn't find one with the R6 or R7 as a choice of camera. The explanation you've given makes perfect sense -thank you again for such a well worded easy to undrstand answer.(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)
DOF doesn't depend on the camera model. Just pick a format that has the same sensor size.
 
If I use my RF100mm macro on the R6 at f/11, and then swap the body to the R7 at f/11- keeping subject distance the same, what is the change in DOF please? Is it the new DOF equivalent to the R6 DOF*1.6. I've looked online and there seem to be contradictory views on this, adn I'm confused. I always thought that an APS-C camera had a greater DOF at a given focal length at the same distance and aperture than a Full frame camera.

Any help very gratefully received :unsure:
Have you checked the PhotoPills App? Set your camera make, etc. and you get the following.

IMG_6117.jpeg
 

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