Tad contraversial M Mode

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Just doing some reading came across this cut ad paste

Let me just make a quick but VERY IMPORTANT point here about using Manual Mode: Unless you're under fixed, studio lighting, using complex flash setups or in a few other fairly niche situations, believe it or not, Manual mode is an incredibly archaic, slow and cumbersome mode to operate in. Modern cameras all have automatic light meters for a reason - so that you don't have to keep fumbling and scrolling through settings just because the lighting has changed since your last shot! There is a tragic misnomer in some photography circles that 'Real photographers use Manual Mode' or that if you're not in Manual Mode, you're in some way not getting the full creative control out of your camera. Believe me, nothing could be further from the truth - and it is a mistake to think that way, and you are doing yourself and your photography a disservice by believing it. Most people who say or who (infuriatingly) teach that Manual Mode is the 'proper' way to go, simply don't understand how modes like Aperture Mode actually work (i.e. it's not taking any creative control away from you, it's simply speeding up the process by finding the other half of a balancing equation for you, to instantly give you whatever exposure level you've asked for - you're still in complete control of the outcome.). Yes there are times when Manual mode is necessary - and I use it when I need to - but I (and the majority of Geographic magazine photographers, for example) actually take most of my photos in Aperture mode, somewhat less in Shutter Speed mode, and only a fraction using in Manual mode. Usually, manual mode just slows you down.
 
PF…

Thanks for starting this thread. I think it is likely to be both interesting and informative.

My contributions will be made as part of my learning journey. I don't wish to instruct — like the experts alluded to by PF— but to expand my knowledge through hearing from others, flicking through the user manual and fiddling with my R5's controls.

Here are the Shooting Modes offered on the R5:
  • A+: Auto Everything
  • Fv: Flexible Priority Auto Exposure
  • P : Program Auto Exposure
  • Tv: Shutter Priority Auto Exposure
  • Av: Aperture Priority Auto Exposure
  • M : Manual Exposure
  • Bulb : Bulb
My defaults are personal variants of M Mode which I have set up as follows and — this is important — saved as Custom Shooting Modes (C1, C2, C3) so that I can get back to my takes on M Mode in a hurry:
  • Shutter : manual
  • Aperture : manual
  • ISO : auto
  • Exposure Compensation : manual
… David
 
I normally use M Mode but of late have started to use Fv. I’ve yet to decide which I prefer for general use. I do use Av for Tv for special subjects.
 
Not sure who wrote that but it's a pretty big assumption about people who use M mode don't understand how Av, etc work. I think it is the other way around. Doesn't slow me down. Not with Auto ISO. I used Av for many years with my DSLR's. I used flash with both Av and M modes depending if I was indoors or outdoors.

I switched to Fv when I got my R. I really like it at first but after about a year in the heat of the moment I found sometimes I'd forget which setting it was on. You have to move the curser (for better words) to what you wanted to change before making the actual change. In M mode I find it a very natural fit have the dials for SS, Aperture and EC set and ready to go when needed. When Canon added Auto ISO to M mode that changed everything.

Also you can only do this in M mode. Reverse the main and back dials to select which ones you want for SS or Aperture.

To me it is shoot in whatever mode works best for you.
 
im hear to learn creating debate and information flow.

I use TV for birds in flight at times.

Still learning. Beginner hoobysit

But lightning photography only lends itself to M
 
You started a debate and I replied to it. :) The author you quoted had an opinion and so do I. Not meant as anything else, just a part of learning. There is nothing wrong with Av. I used it for years. It will be hard to convince me that people who use M mode don't understand the other modes.
 
im here to learn from one and all at times i read to much.
 
As a Wildlife Shooter, I am in Tv 90% of the time. Freezing the action is paramount for me. The camera will then pick the ISO and Aperture (pretty much wide open as the RF 100-500 is a slow lens.) I do have C3 set up for Av with bracketed shots for landscapes.
 
Just doing some reading came across this cut ad paste

Let me just make a quick but VERY IMPORTANT point here about using Manual Mode: Unless you're under fixed, studio lighting, using complex flash setups or in a few other fairly niche situations, believe it or not, Manual mode is an incredibly archaic, slow and cumbersome mode to operate in. Modern cameras all have automatic light meters for a reason - so that you don't have to keep fumbling and scrolling through settings just because the lighting has changed since your last shot! There is a tragic misnomer in some photography circles that 'Real photographers use Manual Mode' or that if you're not in Manual Mode, you're in some way not getting the full creative control out of your camera. Believe me, nothing could be further from the truth - and it is a mistake to think that way, and you are doing yourself and your photography a disservice by believing it. Most people who say or who (infuriatingly) teach that Manual Mode is the 'proper' way to go, simply don't understand how modes like Aperture Mode actually work (i.e. it's not taking any creative control away from you, it's simply speeding up the process by finding the other half of a balancing equation for you, to instantly give you whatever exposure level you've asked for - you're still in complete control of the outcome.). Yes there are times when Manual mode is necessary - and I use it when I need to - but I (and the majority of Geographic magazine photographers, for example) actually take most of my photos in Aperture mode, somewhat less in Shutter Speed mode, and only a fraction using in Manual mode. Usually, manual mode just slows you down.
I used to have the same view as you - Av most of the time, Tv for airshows and wildlife and manual rarely. Nowadays I'm in M almost all the time with Auto-ISO. Gives me complete control of shutter speed and aperture and automatic metering. Honestly, with moderrn sensors and AI denoise programs, I don't how high the ISO goes. Of course, you have to have some idea about what you're doing - no good having 1/60 and f/1.8 in direct sunlight and expecting auto-ISO to cope.
 
I have been into photography since the 80’s. I did not experiment much because film was expensive. In 2005 I got my first DSLR so I decided to take some lessons. I took a basic course just to get out and DSLR’s were new. It also was a precursor to more advanced classes.

I understood the exposure triangle but there were some participants that never taken their cameras out of P mode. Complete automation and nothing to worry about. They had a tough time wrapping their heads around the triangle. Sometimes you need to take a break and revisit things as the brain digests.

Before Auto ISO in M mode not you not only did you have to set up SS, Aperture and ISO you also had to meter. To me Av and Tv were much easier because because you had less to worry about. M was pain to work with, for me anyway.

My contribution to this debate is I just don’t agree with the authors comment about those who use M mode don’t understand the other modes. If one understands the exposure triangle I can’t see how the other modes would be more difficult to understand. I used and preferred Av for almost 15 year. During that period the only time I used M mode was when I put the flash on. M definitely in the studio. That was a given.
 
Everyone will have their own set-up preferences - and if they're happy with the usability and end results, then it's the right one for them. Canon provides us with practically infinite control and settings permutations for a reason - if there one certainty here, it's that one size doesn't fit all.

Our standard set-up at present (given the inherent differences between the R5 and R7 and subject to 'as required' live tweaking) is:

Manual Mode (General walk-around for shooting 'stuff’): Auto ISO (alt. user defined), Expand AF area: Around, Servo AF (alt. One-Shot AF), Full Metering, Low-speed shooting, EFCS. (AF-ON Enables: 'L'+Tracking, Animal detect, Eye-AF Enabled, Servo AF).

C1 (Animals): Manual Mode, Auto ISO (100-6400), 'L'+Tracking (Animals, Eye-AF Enabled, Case 2, Switching subjects 0), Servo AF, Partial Metering, High-speed shooting (occasionally H+), Mechanical Shutter. (AF-ON Enables: Expand AF area: Around, One-Shot AF with Manual Focus + Zoom).

C2 (People): Manual Mode, Auto ISO (100-6400), 'L'+Tracking (Humans, Eye-AF Enabled, Case 1, Switching subjects 1), Servo (alt. One-Shot AF), Partial Metering (alt. Full), Low-speed shooting, EFCS.

C3 (Long Exposures): Tv Mode, ISO 100 (alt. User defined), Expanded Point, One-Shot AF, Full Metering (alt. Partial), Self-timer, EFCS.

(R5 only - [M-Fn]: 'Switch to Custom Mode' so I can cycle between Current Mode-C1-C2-C3. [SET]: 'Dial Function' (EC, Drive, ISO, Metering), [AF-ON]: 'Centre F. Point', Lens/ Ad Ring: 'EC').

All modes: Continuous Focus Disabled, 'Lens drive when AF impossible' set to 'ON’, changes to Custom Modes are saved so they ‘stick’ if the camera sleeps/ is turned off-on. Rear screen parked/ reversed when shooting (unless being used at odd angles). Auto Review Off, EVF Smooth.

I'm not sure where this takes you, but there you go...

Phil
 
As stated with todays sensors and advanced NR software I rarely worry about ISO. I’d rather get a high ISO in focus shot than a low ISO blurred shot. I pay attention to the ISO but if I have to go high then I do. The shot is always the priority.
 
Everyone will have their own set-up preferences - and if they're happy with the usability and end results, then it's the right one for them. Canon provides us with practically infinite control and settings permutations for a reason - if there one certainty here, it's that one size doesn't fit all.

Our standard set-up at present (given the inherent differences between the R5 and R7 and subject to 'as required' live tweaking) is:

Manual Mode (General walk-around for shooting 'stuff’): Auto ISO (alt. user defined), Expand AF area: Around, Servo AF (alt. One-Shot AF), Full Metering, Low-speed shooting, EFCS. (AF-ON Enables: 'L'+Tracking, Animal detect, Eye-AF Enabled, Servo AF).

C1 (Animals): Manual Mode, Auto ISO (100-6400), 'L'+Tracking (Animals, Eye-AF Enabled, Case 2, Switching subjects 0), Servo AF, Partial Metering, High-speed shooting (occasionally H+), Mechanical Shutter. (AF-ON Enables: Expand AF area: Around, One-Shot AF with Manual Focus + Zoom).

C2 (People): Manual Mode, Auto ISO (100-6400), 'L'+Tracking (Humans, Eye-AF Enabled, Case 1, Switching subjects 1), Servo (alt. One-Shot AF), Partial Metering (alt. Full), Low-speed shooting, EFCS.

C3 (Long Exposures): Tv Mode, ISO 100 (alt. User defined), Expanded Point, One-Shot AF, Full Metering (alt. Partial), Self-timer, EFCS.

(R5 only - [M-Fn]: 'Switch to Custom Mode' so I can cycle between Current Mode-C1-C2-C3. [SET]: 'Dial Function' (EC, Drive, ISO, Metering), [AF-ON]: 'Centre F. Point', Lens/ Ad Ring: 'EC').

All modes: Continuous Focus Disabled, 'Lens drive when AF impossible' set to 'ON’, changes to Custom Modes are saved so they ‘stick’ if the camera sleeps/ is turned off-on. Rear screen parked/ reversed when shooting (unless being used at odd angles). Auto Review Off, EVF Smooth.

I'm not sure where this takes you, but there you go...

Phil
There aren’t enough C1-3 modes with today’s bodies. Far more programming options than even 5 years ago. I’d like to see a mapping option on the back of the body that you could quickly toggle through. Maybe a dozen modes? While handy I find the C1-3 options on the dial archaic.
 
There aren’t enough C1-3 modes with today’s bodies. Far more programming options than even 5 years ago. I’d like to see a mapping option on the back of the body that you could quickly toggle through. Maybe a dozen modes? While handy I find the C1-3 options on the dial archaic.
Manual + the 3 C options generally suffices for our purposes, though - as indicated - we're forever making adjustments on the fly as we go through a shoot (e.g. indoor/ outdoor exhibits at a zoo) and for this sort of stuff having more than 3 would be very nice. (Though I'd probably get totally lost... :LOL: ).

If I was a little more organised I'd save a couple of cameras set-up mappings out to SD card and bring in the one I want for any scenario, but I'm not.

Having an in-camera library of saved set-ups could be interesting, but my suspicion is Canon will be introducing zebras for stills before we see that... :cool:

Phil
 
I'd like to have more modes so I could set up eShutter and EFCS for each of the categories, animals, people and vehicles. That is 6 to start. With too many it could also get convoluted and you'd have to remember them so there is a down side. Those options are easily accessible in the green menus.
 
I should have said "other" options besides animals, people and vehicles are available for mapping. Eye detect on/off is mapped to Set for the R6II and the Cross Keys on the R7. Air shows. Shutter speed of 1/6400 for jets and with a quick press 1/160 for props. The less I move my eye away from the EVF the happier I am. :)
 
I consider Fv to be two finger Manual control. Thumb switches to the function I want to change, index finger changes it.
And when I'm lazy the east button on the 4 way sets everything to Auto. :)
 
From that link. Generally speaking, you should keep your ISO as low as you can, to prevent ISO noise. What he says is not incorrect but there is more to it. It is always best to keep it down. You should read the responses. Particularly these ones.

High ISO doesn't cause noise
Noise becomes apparent as the result of insufficient exposure



I have seen other links articles about this but I couldn't find any. Appropriate shutter speeds and correct exposures are key.
 
From that link. Generally speaking, you should keep your ISO as low as you can, to prevent ISO noise. What he says is not incorrect but there is more to it. It is always best to keep it down. You should read the responses. Particularly these ones.

High ISO doesn't cause noise
Noise becomes apparent as the result of insufficient exposure



I have seen other links articles about this but I couldn't find any. Appropriate shutter speeds and correct exposures are key.
This is absolutely correct. In fact, if you are shooting in RAW, provided you don’t blow highlights it doesn’t really matter what ISO you or the camera chooses within reason. There is little to no difference between turning up the ISO in the camera or lifting the lightness of the shot in the RAW converter. What affects the noise is the exposure in the camera - minimising noise is served by maximising exposure (ie maximising aperture and exposure time) within the limits of the required depth of focus and avoiding motion blur. For a given exposure, the R5 and R6 are pretty much ISO invariant above ISO400.
 
Just doing some reading came across this cut ad paste

Let me just make a quick but VERY IMPORTANT point here about using Manual Mode: Unless you're under fixed, studio lighting, using complex flash setups or in a few other fairly niche situations, believe it or not, Manual mode is an incredibly archaic, slow and cumbersome mode to operate in. Modern cameras all have automatic light meters for a reason - so that you don't have to keep fumbling and scrolling through settings just because the lighting has changed since your last shot! There is a tragic misnomer in some photography circles that 'Real photographers use Manual Mode' or that if you're not in Manual Mode, you're in some way not getting the full creative control out of your camera. Believe me, nothing could be further from the truth - and it is a mistake to think that way, and you are doing yourself and your photography a disservice by believing it. Most people who say or who (infuriatingly) teach that Manual Mode is the 'proper' way to go, simply don't understand how modes like Aperture Mode actually work (i.e. it's not taking any creative control away from you, it's simply speeding up the process by finding the other half of a balancing equation for you, to instantly give you whatever exposure level you've asked for - you're still in complete control of the outcome.). Yes there are times when Manual mode is necessary - and I use it when I need to - but I (and the majority of Geographic magazine photographers, for example) actually take most of my photos in Aperture mode, somewhat less in Shutter Speed mode, and only a fraction using in Manual mode. Usually, manual mode just slows you down.
Scott Kelby said the same thing a few months ago on his youtube channel, The Grid. Hey, I grew up with match needle metering on my cameras and a lot of cameras with no meter so I set everything using a Gossen Luna Pro light meter. I almost always shoot in P or now FV and only used T and A for when I needed direct control of aperture and shutter speed. I only use M for when I use studio strobes or off camera flash units or for things like astrophotography.
 
Sorry for going off topic a bit but there is some good information building up in this thread.

I've never been afraid of high ISO. In 2009 I had my 7D for a short period of time. A work buddy asked me to shoot his sons football game. It was an evening game and that that day I learned the meaning of a fast lens. I had an 300 L F4 IS and I had to shoot at 12,800 to just get the SS up to 1/500. Some motion blur on the feet and hands but it showed a little movement. Some shots lower. All I used was PS for NR. the 8 by 10's came out OK and they loved them. I might import this one in LrC just out of curiosity.

_MG_2542.jpg
 
These days modern sensors. My R7 at ISO 20000. I had a good exposure which helped and I ran this through LrC Denoise AI. I would have preferred a lower ISO because there is some IQ loss as the ISO's get that high. I had a fast SS because I was trying to catch them taking off and landing. That football shot was not cropped which also helped. This one is and it is usable.

_G7A6996-Enhanced-NR.jpg
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_G7A6996.jpg
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These days modern sensors. My R7 at ISO 20000. I had a good exposure which helped and I ran this through LrC Denoise AI. I would have preferred a lower ISO because there is some IQ loss as the ISO's get that high. I had a fast SS because I was trying to catch them taking off and landing. That football shot was not cropped which also helped. This one is and it is usable.
Absolutely, but it's not the high ISO per se that causes the noise and loss of detail. Both the high ISO and the noise are (mostly) a consequence of low exposure (light energy per unit area on the sensor). So high ISO and noise can be and often are correlated because they are both a consequence of low exposure. For example, say you had set the same aperture and shutter speed as above but set the ISO to 800, your image would look very dark (4 stops underexposed). But if you then lifted the lightness of the RAW image in LR with the "exposure" slider, you would get pretty much the same result as you got with ISO 20000. With modern sensors, most of the noise comes from shot noise (ie photon noise in the original exposure) which is baked into the analogue image before A/D conversion and before the camera applies an ISO. Changing the ISO for a given exposure changes the lightness of the of the image but not the noise (mostly). Of course, if you're shooting jpeg then getting the correct lightness in camera is important because you have much less leeway to adjust the lightness in post. But if you're shooting RAW, the moral of the tale is to maximise aperture and exposure time in order to maximise sensor exposure, subject to not blowing highlights, stopping motion and giving you the DoF you need, and let the ISO do what it will. (Other sources of noise such as read noise can be affected by choice of ISO, but are much less significant in modern sensors).
 
Absolutely, but it's not the high ISO per se that causes the noise and loss of detail. Both the high ISO and the noise are (mostly) a consequence of low exposure (light energy per unit area on the sensor). So high ISO and noise can be and often are correlated because they are both a consequence of low exposure. For example, say you had set the same aperture and shutter speed as above but set the ISO to 800, your image would look very dark (4 stops underexposed). But if you then lifted the lightness of the RAW image in LR with the "exposure" slider, you would get pretty much the same result as you got with ISO 20000. With modern sensors, most of the noise comes from shot noise (ie photon noise in the original exposure) which is baked into the analogue image before A/D conversion and before the camera applies an ISO. Changing the ISO for a given exposure changes the lightness of the of the image but not the noise (mostly). Of course, if you're shooting jpeg then getting the correct lightness in camera is important because you have much less leeway to adjust the lightness in post. But if you're shooting RAW, the moral of the tale is to maximise aperture and exposure time in order to maximise sensor exposure, subject to not blowing highlights, stopping motion and giving you the DoF you need, and let the ISO do what it will. (Other sources of noise such as read noise can be affected by choice of ISO, but are much less significant in modern sensors).
Thanks for the detailed response.
 
Very interesting video suggested by Phil. I shoot Tv mostly (for wildlife and sports cars) but switch to Av for portraits/landscapes. Have yet to experiment with Fv.
 
Very interesting video suggested by Phil. I shoot Tv mostly (for wildlife and sports cars) but switch to Av for portraits/landscapes. Have yet to experiment with Fv.
In my DSLR days when I shot wildlife I used Av. I would leave Aperture alone but I would increase or decrease ISO manually to get the SS to where I wanted it. Just a different approach with the to achieve the same results.
 
C1 in AV, C2 in TV and C3 in TV and burst for BIF.
 

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