Criticism - Good Bad or say nothing.

[Greg]

Lots of fab pictures on this forum. Some not so fab pictures and a few .

Not many pictures are getting any feedback, they get a and few get a short well done remark.

As a group should we be be more proactive with our point of view? Some here, not me, are professionals in their field. If I put a picture on the forum i would be eager for criticism, good and bad. How are we amateurs supposed to improve if we are continuously wallowing in our own glory.

Traditionally as a nation the British are very reserved (the rest of the world?), far safer to say nothing compared to having your head blown off for saying something out of turn.

Should we all be braver and take the risk by expressing our point of view?

 

[dmiller68]

I always appreciate feedback myself on my pictures. I'm self critical of most of my work anyway. Although I would say I'm don't feel I'm in a position to review others work. I do try to say something if I really like a photo.

 

[Shotbycurtin]

I stick to a general rule of thumb on photography forums, that is to say nothing other than a like or post a comment along the lines of
“great shot” if the image floats your boat, unless the OP asks for constructive criticism when posting up the image.

 

[Greg]

I stick to a general rule of thumb on photography forums, that is to say nothing other than a like or post a comment along the lines of
“great shot” if the image floats your boat, unless the OP asks for constructive criticism when posting up the image.

That's the stiff upper lip British way

 

[jimglasgow]

I suggested to Forum admin we should create an area for photos to be critiqued and that way nobody is offended you need to just accept people’s comment good or bad

 

[Greg]

I suggested to Forum admin we should create an area for photos to be critiqued and that way nobody is offended you need to just accept people’s comment good or bad

I took the plunge the other day and criticised someone's work, I was partly flamed.

It is not easy to criticise without being shot down. its difficult to say exactly what you mean and not leave room for the wrong interpretation to slip in

 

[Shotbycurtin]

That's the stiff upper lip British way

Call it what you want. Not everyone posts an image expecting critism. I post images up because I like them and I think they are worthy of sharing, though I do not expect everyone to like them as we all have different tastes, if I get some affirmation it’s a bonus. Conversely I do not expect responses telling me they are crap. If we all responded in that manner I don’t think the posters would be too popular and the forum wouldn’t last very long.

The critiques corner is a sensible way forward where constructive critism can be sought rather than imposed.

 

[Greg]

The critiques corner is a sensible way forward where constructive critism can be sought rather than imposed.

I would support that.

 

[Copterdoc]

I have been considering this issue since the first post by Greg, who broached this issue and Jim Glasgow beat me to the suggestion and I'm very glad others are thinking along these lines. The beauty of a "voluntary submittal area" would be that those posting for comments (critique) would be doing so in hopes of receiving "civil commentary" about the images. Obviously, there would need to be some form of moderation but it should be clearly understood that if you post here, you are requesting a critique and need to be thick-skinned enough to take advantage of the suggestions.

Even though I shoot photos for the aviation company I work for, I consider myself a perpetual novice. This allows me to be open to suggestions for improvement. This openness is also something I read in some of the newbie photographer posts. THey desire "civil critique" to help them learn and improve. The key is to offer critiques that are helpful and not gruff in nature. In this regard, how these critiques are delivered is something all those critiquing need to keep in mind.

One thing posters to this venue would have to keep in mind is that people have different styles in offering advice and to take it all in stride. Understand that some of the advice will be erroneous (unintentionally) and as with all social media, you will have to evaluate the veracity of the information provided.

In any case, a great possibility for learning and growth.

 

[Greg]

"Thick skinned". "Civil critique". Opposite sides of the coin? Looks like we are on the path to writing rules the artists and the evaluator could abide by.
It should be relatively safe to give technical criticism.

 

[50/1.4]

I will not critique others’ pictures here because I am not very good at it and would have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

 

[Kathryn Milner]

I like the idea of having a separate section for critiques as well. With people participating in this forum coming from all stages of skill development I thing being positive overall is the way to go. If someone asks for a critique I think that is a good way to get feedback if the photographer wants it.

 

[Ted M]

I would support that.

Me too. Less likelihood of being flamed if you try to offer constructive comment, and less likelihood of being disheartened if someone pulls your photo to bits. You ask for criticism if you post in that forum, but can still post plenty of shots where you just want to show folk the pics you've taken. Derr, I hope that makes sense.

 

[Copterdoc]

"Thick skinned". "Civil critique". Opposite sides of the coin? Looks like we are on the path to writing rules the artists and the evaluator could abide by.
It should be relatively safe to give technical criticism.

I did not intend these comments to be directed towards developing rules but ensure free and honest critiques leading to productive discussions. This requires that both sides of the coin understand that "thick-skinned" and "civil critique" are required by all participants. In any case, the current rules to use this site are more than sufficient. JMHO

 

[MaraLee]

I'd be open to a critique section. I think there would be a real opportunity to learn from the group here, even for those lurking, much more than the Facebook groups that merely pat each other on the back and don't offer any real advice or help.

However, I notice there's an obvious lack of input from Mister Timothy on the subject, so I suspect there's a reason why we don't already have this feature?

Timothy?

Timothy?

 

[Greg]

However, I notice there's an obvious lack of input from Mister Timothy on the subject, so I suspect there's a reason why we don't already have this feature?

Timothy?

Timothy?

He could be busy. The forum is growing

 

[RickH1]

I think if you are going to comment on someones photo , you need to understand why it was taken in the eye of the photographer , so a critique section would be good so the photographer can give their view of the photo first . I personally don't comment on anyones work unless it's to praise the photo , I certainly don't see the point in commenting anything negative , I am not your teacher and neither am I your pupil , we all work at different levels whether its pro or for enjoyment , a photo can mean nothing to one person and the world to another , I took snapshots of a holiday we took in 2019 , they mean the world to us as a family but are far from professional photos , but I also go out and shoot photos for clients and wouldn't dream of taking and presenting photos that I don't class are of a certain standard , or a standard that I want to work at .

 

[MaraLee]

He could be busy. The forum is growing

Oh, I'm sure he's very busy. Timothy has done an extremely efficient job of covering pretty much every aspect this type of site could provide, so I was musing aloud (?) that he may very well have his reasons for not already having a section devoted to critiques due to his own reasons. He may just not have the extra time needed to put out any fires that that particular type of forum can erupt into.

No matter how many caveats you provide, there will always be those that get their feelings hurt because they put up Poopsie's photo really wanting the OOOHs and AWWWs rather than real constructive criticism. I've moderated a forum at a national publication with over 58k members in the past, and it would overtake the lives of the admins and moderators, with the critiques being the worst culprits.

 

[Greg]

Basically, the forum needs a permanent heading and a few ground rules.

As long as comment are of benefit I don't see a problem. Just needs Timothy's approval.

 

[Copterdoc]

I think if you are going to comment on someones photo , you need to understand why it was taken in the eye of the photographer , so a critique section would be good so the photographer can give their view of the photo first . I personally don't comment on anyones work unless it's to praise the photo , I certainly don't see the point in commenting anything negative , I am not your teacher and neither am I your pupil , we all work at different levels whether its pro or for enjoyment , a photo can mean nothing to one person and the world to another , I took snapshots of a holiday we took in 2019 , they mean the world to us as a family but are far from professional photos , but I also go out and shoot photos for clients and wouldn't dream of taking and presenting photos that I don't class are of a certain standard , or a standard that I want to work at .

I understand your concern. However, as this is a voluntary submittal for critique, those seeking this type of input would only be submitting photos they desire input on for the purposes of learning and growing. The key is "voluntary". There is the rest of this site that can serve quite well for the purposes of any other photo posting. As you say "we all work at different levels whether its pro or for enjoyment " and this forum would allow those truly interested photographers an opportunity to grow and gain knowledge to attain different skill levels.

 

[Tim Mayo]

I'm happy to setup up a forum specifically for critiquing images when critique is requested. Like Greg mentioned there will probably need to be some ground rules. It certainly won't hurt to trial it for a while anyway to see how it goes. I'll get something sorted out tomorrow. Please feel free to suggest some ground rules

 

[Shotbycurtin]

As stated before, whilst in principle I think its a good resource to have, though I understand the concerns voiced here. Providing constructive feedback is quite a complex process and is more than “I don’t like that” or “I dont get it” type of comments. As mentioned by Rick, an understanding of the photographers intentions and image is vital and a good starting point before jumping to conclusions. I can understand if Timothy intentionally didn’t include a critics corner, as I can see it creating a whole load of moderation issues to deal with, particularly with those who don’t understand the concept of feedback.

 

[Shotbycurtin]

The above was posted prior to sighting Timothys post. Thanks Timothy. Happy to start the ball rolling.. feel free to critique lol

Before giving feedback, make sure you fully understand the image, process or issue.

Staying in enquiry mode can help, don’t jump to conclusions.

Ask questions such as what, how, when and why. Tell, explain and describe are also useful approaches.

Questions also help the OP understand the issue for themselves.

Only when you feel you understand the issue then provide some constructive feedback.

A feedback sandwich is a helpful approach, something positive, corrective feedback and finishing on a positive.

Other helpful approaches in a feedback sandwich is to include aspects you’d like more of, less of or stop.

Keep feedback specific, measurable and realistic.

Avoid projecting own emotions in feedback.

Be mindful how the feedback comes across, for it to be helpful, the OP needs to connect to and value the provider.

Dont get upset if your feedback wasn’t deemed useful, what works for one may not work for another at that point in time.

 

[PRenee]

I have mixed feelings on unsolicited critiques someone’s work. Maybe there should be a button or symbol the photographer can use to show if critiques are welcome. That way people who want or are open to more detailed feedback on their work can receive it. This should be on a per photo basis. Sometimes critiques can be helpful.

 

[Copterdoc]

I'm happy to setup up a forum specifically for critiquing images when critique is requested. Like Greg mentioned there will probably need to be some ground rules. It certainly won't hurt to trial it for a while anyway to see how it goes. I'll get something sorted out tomorrow. Please feel free to suggest some ground rules

Thanks, Timothy. I would suggest that the poster provide a short synopsis of the process used to create the image and what issues they think might be improved. That sets the stage for people to get background and an understanding of both the intent and the technical aspects of the generated image.

In this way, those wishing to critique can understand the submitter's intent and perceived issues. A good point of reference to start with. If the photo submitted does not have an accompanying synopsis, then we will assume the submitter is willing to accept all critiques, given civilly, without offense. Or we can request that the submitter add the necessary information before critiques are offered. JMHO

 

[Copterdoc]

I have mixed feelings on unsolicited critiques someone’s work. Maybe there should be a button or symbol the photographer can use to show if critiques are welcome. That way people who want or are open to more detailed feedback on their work can receive it. This should be on a per photo basis. Sometimes critiques can be helpful.

I think the intent is to make the request for comments "voluntary". This might be more easily accomplished either with some icon as you suggest or a different area to post to. I reality, there is no method on RF Shooters currently to prevent unsolicited critique of anyone's work. This is why moderators are necessary. I might be wrong on this but to date, I see an open comments pane for any of the posts. I any case, as this site grows, moderation will eventually become necessary because not all people will follow the rules or voluntary etiquette. much like the one I'm using now.

 

[RickH1]

I understand your concern. However, as this is a voluntary submittal for critique, those seeking this type of input would only be submitting photos they desire input on for the purposes of learning and growing. The key is "voluntary". There is the rest of this site that can serve quite well for the purposes of any other photo posting. As you say "we all work at different levels whether its pro or for enjoyment " and this forum would allow those truly interested photographers an opportunity to grow and gain knowledge to attain different skill levels.

I agree with you have an area where you can have your photo critiqued I am all for it .

 

[Tim Mayo]

I have mixed feelings on unsolicited critiques someone’s work. Maybe there should be a button or symbol the photographer can use to show if critiques are welcome. That way people who want or are open to more detailed feedback on their work can receive it. This should be on a per photo basis. Sometimes critiques can be helpful.

I'll setup a dedicated forum for members who are looking for critique for now. I'll also consider some sort of option to show that critique is welcome for images posted in other forums, but I expect this will just get overlooked.

 

[Tim Mayo]

I've setup the Critique Lounge Forum that can be found towards the top of the forum list. I'm still working on a guide for members asking for critique and those replying, so posting is disabled for now. Please feel free to make suggestions in this thread, they will most likely evolve over time so don't need to be perfect for now.

 

[Tim Mayo]

The above was posted prior to sighting Timothys post. Thanks Timothy. Happy to start the ball rolling.. feel free to critique lol

Before giving feedback, make sure you fully understand the image, process or issue.

Staying in enquiry mode can help, don’t jump to conclusions.

Ask questions such as what, how, when and why. Tell, explain and describe are also useful approaches.

Questions also help the OP understand the issue for themselves.

Only when you feel you understand the issue then provide some constructive feedback.

A feedback sandwich is a helpful approach, something positive, corrective feedback and finishing on a positive.

Other helpful approaches in a feedback sandwich is to include aspects you’d like more of, less of or stop.

Keep feedback specific, measurable and realistic.

Avoid projecting own emotions in feedback.

Be mindful how the feedback comes across, for it to be helpful, the OP needs to connect to and value the provider.

Dont get upset if your feedback wasn’t deemed useful, what works for one may not work for another at that point in time.

Cheers Mike. Some good ground rules there! I think all I need to do is copy/paste